Ambulance bosses defend plans to expand network of trained volunteer to respond to emergencies

Ambulance bosses today defended plans to expand a network of trained volunteers to respond to emergencies - as it looks to phase out existing relationships with fire services.

The South Western Ambulance Trust today told a meeting that crews were - at times - unavailable and volunteer responses can be 'quicker', as they were urged by councillors to 'reconsider' the plan and maintain both response schemes equally.

At the moment fire co-responders are paid £80 a call out, or an estimated total of £280,000 a year in the South West, with suggestions trained volunteers would cost £20 a time. The South Western Ambulance Trust says the change is not about saving money - and no existing agreements will be ended until adequate trained volunteer cover is available for each area.

The Devon County Council Health Scrutiny Committee today heard 1,424 people have signed a petition against the changes in Hartland as local fire crews must be able to reach the station within five minutes - but volunteers must within five miles and so could take up to '12 minutes to arrive depending on traffic conditions'. A spokesperson for the Devon & Somerset Fire service did add later tell Greatest Hits Radio that fire crews must head to the station first, without blue lights, and so could still take longer that trained volunteers.

The meeting was told the Devon & Somerset Fire Service is paid roughly £100,000 a year in call out costs, with an estimate of £795,000 needed to equip all the volunteer responders before any additional costs such as training and admin.

Dr John Martin, chief executive of the ambulance trust, today told the meeting that no changes have yet been made and evidence suggests volunteers 'can reduce response times'.

He cited an agreement with fire services across the region that 'South Western Ambulance Service will continue with their plans to increase the number of Community First Responders across the South West whilst committing to not exiting any fire co-responding scheme until appropriate backfill arrangements are in place'.

Cheryl Cottle-Hunkin, Devon's cabinet member for rural affairs, cited one volunteer being sent to seven category one incidents in a month at Hartland - when fire crews were available - and suggesting as volunteers do not have 'blue lights' it raises concerns about county-wide response times. She questioned why the reports defending the change did not provide detailed localised response times.

Cllr Cottle-Hunkin warned it should not be an 'either, or' decision as fire crews are only paid when used - and the decision should be 're-thought' to use both volunteers and fire crews.

Cllr Eddy Tyldesley said communities were 'already digging deep in their pockets' to fund things like community landing sites and other support and so asking them to do more was unfair.

Dr John Martin was asked by the committee why 'both systems' could not continue, to which he replied they send the 'nearest available responder' and there will be a point where the current arrangement will become 'unviable' - citing an example where they asked crews in Combe Martin to respond to 71 incidents in eight months and only three were attended. He told the committee another site now stored its life-saving medical equipment 'outside the locked building' to make it more accessible to the community when needed as not all firefighters are co-responders.

Cllr Sally Morgan cited an example of a lone volunteer responder who struggled to keep up the required CPR on a patient - and she was told in response 'we don't just send one community first responder if more than one is available' but that response speed was 'vital' and the quicker a casualty can be reached the better. She asked: 'Why at this time are you (the ambulance trust) looking to walk away from a good, working partnership?'

Ryan Ware, the head of volunteering and community service at SWASFT, said: 'By the time the incident unfolds there's often a lot more people on scene' to help."

Cllr Dermot McGeough told the meeting he felt it was being 'railroaded through' and the problem was 'too many thinkers and not enough doers'.

Cllr Stuart Rogers asked how the public would be reassured and was told there is now 'no time frame in place' to replace firefighters and on a 'significant number of occasions crews were not available to respond'.

Dr Martin explained the service had received coroner 'preventing future deaths' reports over 'response times' but the circumstances were mixed and 'multi-factorial' and could not directly relate to questions about its partnership with fire services.

The chair of the meeting, Councillor Jess Bailey, asked 'why would we lose a resource (firefighters) when they also do an amazing job - it just doesn't make sense to me' as she questioned the lack of evidence to show volunteers were quicker at responding than crews. She called the information provided by the ambulance trust 'not a sound basis for decision making' and warned 'I still don't think we should be heading in this direction'. She added: "I feel, and I think the committee feels, that this is the wrong direction of travel."

Devon & Somerset Fire Service currently has 107 volunteer co-responders who were 'generally negative' about the change in a survey, although most said they understood the reasons behind it. When firefighters were asked if they wanted to be 'fast tracked' as Community First Responders 'no one expressed a definite willingness to volunteer' but the meeting was told service does still to aim to work 'positively' with the ambulance service - as existing commitments would make it hard to volunteer as a community first responder.

Ambulance bosses were asked by Councillor Bailey why the trust was not seeking to recruit both volunteers and crews equally - as she raised concerns about a lack of published detailed local response times and what she felt was a 'comprehensive impact assessment'.

Dr Martin told the committee that - for example - Lynton has no active fire co-responders and 'the reason we are looking at our model is our intent to improve our response times in all of our areas' but 'we might still be sitting here in x number of years and they are all still in place'.

Cllr Cottle-Hunkin responded by asking why the service was not recruiting more co-responders - rather than just volunteers.

Dr Martin also called on more people to learn essential first aid, including how to use defibrillators. After the meeting he said to Greatest Hits Radio : "We will send the nearest available community response and our belief is as we've got more community first responders in an area they will be closer to these emergency calls therefore they will get there quicker. It is also true that community first responders go to a wider range of calls so more of the 999 calls that come in."

Deputy Chief Fire Officer at Devon & Somerset Gerald Taylor later said: "We're very proud of our fire responders and the work they do so it is disappointing from that perspective however we've always had very positive relationships with South Western Ambulance Service SWAST and I'm sure our crews are out today working alongside paramedics and looking after communities. We will always have those strong relationships with the ambulance service.

"I think that SWAST and ourselves have a common aim which is to do the best by our communities. We have said to SWAST that we will be there until they are at a point that what they're offering they believe is a better offering for their communities. We are not going to let our communities down and we will work with SWAST to make sure that's the case."

When asked if the decision could impact the long-term viability of some fire stations, he replied: "Not at all. Co-responding is not a statutory duty for the fire and rescue service and our stations and where they are located and the resources they have are based on our statutory responsibility as a fire and rescue service.

"Co-responding is just something else that's non-statutory so it has no bearing at all.

The Devon County Council Health Scrutiny Committee today said it would write to the ambulance trust's board to raise its concerns about the proposal.

There's more about today's meeting here

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